Lone Protester V Turning Point Charlie Kirk Rally

We trace how a single counterprotester held space at a small-town Turning Point rally, and how performative civility flipped to petty violence when dissent stayed visible. We dig into the psychology, the power plays, and the stakes for neighbors who want safety without silence.

• why one person chose to protest a local turning point rally
• the role of music and signage as nonviolent counter-speech
• friendly small talk turning into property damage and intimidation
• hypocrisy of “free speech” and “law and order” claims
• private apologies versus public accountability in small towns
• why homogeneous groups radicalize faster
• research on disgust sensitivity and exposure shaping ideology
• first settlers principle and cultural imprint in local power
• how to show up safely, document, and set boundaries
• next steps: return, organize presence, raise a louder voice

If you feel like supporting the show, then go into the notes. There’s a you can buy me a coffee or whatever you feel like doing. Please leave a comment, share this with some friends, spread it, especially if you’re local. If you live in Port Angeles or Washington or Squim or Forks or Joyce or any of these little areas around here, please send this to your friends. We need to get the word out about these people. I hope that you guys come out and join this protest.

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage
• 2:05 Why Protest A Turning Point Rally
• 5:20 The Song As Counter-Speech
• 9:30 Early Encounters And “Free Speech”
• 14:45 The Founders’ Descendant Story
• 20:05 From Friendly Chatter To Escalation
• 23:10 The Kick And The Stolen Speaker
• 27:00 Safety, Proud Boys, And Exit Strategy
• 31:20 Hypocrisy Of Law And Order
• 35:10 Apologies Without Accountability
• 38:45 End-Times Politics And Control
• 43:00 Why Bigot Gatherings Normalize Harm
• 48:05 Brains, Disgust, And Radicalization

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:35

Hey everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Speak Plainly Podcast, where we speak plainly about things that matter. I'm your host, Owl Medicine, and in today's podcast, I have a special treat for you. Today, I'm interviewing actually my partner, Michael. And the reason we're doing this interview is because he decided to go down and be the sole protester at a Charlie Kirk rally that happened in our little small town yesterday. And the the goings on that happened around that just before that and since then have been kind of mad, like truly mad. So I wanted to talk to him about his experience because he had his he had a speaker kicked down the steps, off of the ledge, down the steps, and had somebody else throw his speaker on top of the roof after that dude was like, Why is your side so violent? Um, and by the way, the lady who kicked his speaker off of the cliff down to the bottom had an I Love Jesus hat. So today we're going to explore what happens when bigots gather in small towns. Welcome, Michael. Hello, thank you. I wanted to ask you about your experience there. Um why did you go down to the Charlie Kirk rally? What did you do? What was your point?

SPEAKER_03: 1:59

Tell me about it. Well, I had planned on going to the Charlie Kirk rally. Um I made the decision to go the day before. Um and then that night I had a crazy dream, kind of similar to what a lot of people are experiencing right now, being um chased around by ice. Like I was one of those people in that dream. So I woke up, just very charged, I'm like very motivated. Um and so I just wanted to go and be a presence there. I didn't believe I would be the only one, just being a presence of opposition to uh a hate group fomenting in our town. Yeah, so I wanted to go and just um kind of just be a little bit of a thorn. I didn't want to go and be a huge disruption. I you know, I I didn't want to cause any trouble. I was wasn't there to argue with anyone. I was literally just there to, on repeat, just play this song called Um The Day the Nazi Died by Chumbawamba. That was my plan. I had a sign that said um, no Nazis, no kings, no fascist ideology. I was perched up kind of up above the rally. There's a staircase that leads up to a landing. And so I was up on this staircase landing. I had my speaker and I had my sign, I flipped it over the edge. Right when I got there, a couple people yelling down from the rally were like, We're not Nazis, and I was like, That's good, and you know, we're we're here for free speech. And it's like, yeah, me too. And, you know, uh I would walk by someone and be like, hello, fellow American, and you know, people would come up and be like, What are you doing? I'm like, Oh, I'm just here, you know, exercising my free riot like you guys are. You know, that's what's so great about America, right? Is that we can all just safely gather, and you know, we don't want to lose that, right? We really don't want to lose this unique, lovely thing about America. You know, just all the talking points that, you know, we all try to adhere to, as the the good things about America, you know, that you can gather, that you can talk. Yes, that's like the setup.

SPEAKER_02: 3:54

Okay. I mean, that's pretty cool. And I feel like it's it it's good that someone like you went, because you are a a a pretty reserved person. You're not a a a pot stirrer like that. Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_03: 4:06

Usually when I go to a protest, it's like the tipping points already happened. Like I'm I'm there with the majority, you know. So this was like my first time being the only person protesting something. It's different, isn't it? It was um it was very interesting, and it felt even more important that I was there when I realized that no one else was like just being a presence or even anything. So when I first got to the rally, you know, I I went down a r around just to make sure that it is what I thought it was, that it was a turning point rally. I saw some people with signs standing right by the street, and I got really excited. I was like, oh good, someone is is protesting, and nope, it was it was not. So I was like, okay. So uh, you know, I went up back to my car, grabbed my sign, hung it over the edge, and started playing my music. Okay, well, let's play them the music that you chose. So there's this, like I said, there's a song called Um The Day They Died, or The Day the Nazi Died. It's kind of um it was originally called Nazi by Chumbawamba, and so we'll play it for you now. This version is by Sarah Hester Ross, who's a great um who's a great singer, and I found her on Instagram.

SPEAKER_00: 5:15

We're told that after the war the Nazis vanished without a trace. But battalions of fascists still dream of a master race. The history books they tell us of their defeat in 45. And they all came out of the woodworks on the day the Nazi died. This world is riddled with maggots. The maggots are getting fat. They're making the tasty meal of all the pastors and bureaucrats. They're taking over our churches and they're filled with fat and pride. And they all came out of the woodworks on the day the Nazi died.

SPEAKER_01: 5:59

So if you meet with these historians, I'll tell you what to say. Tell them that the Nazis never really went to the line.

SPEAKER_02: 6:32

Damn.

SPEAKER_03: 6:33

So yeah, I mean honestly, hearing that today after being there yesterday, listening to that the whole time, almost brings a little tears to my eyes just because if you're offended by that song, what does that say about you? Right. Right. So um, so I had this song and three others by um by or two others by it was the same song by three artists. I had this playlist looping on repeat. Yeah, and so I was just there with that sign and a Bluetooth speaker that unfortunately wasn't loud enough. So I'm I'm there and first person who comes up to me is this kind of um about my age, some like kind of dad-looking dude. And um he comes up and he goes, Oh, you know, we can't really hear, we can't really hear your music. And I was like, Oh, bummer, alright, well, you know, I'm just doing what I can. And he's like, Well, what are you doing here? So I said, Oh, well, I'm just, you know, kind of being a counter presence to what's going on. And and then immediately another woman comes up, and uh, she's an older, older woman, I think probably like a great grandma. She comes up and she's very friendly. She's like, I just have to talk to you. I just have to meet you. And so I, you know, I shake her hand and you know, she pets my dog, and we're like all chummy, and um, you know, she just got and I just want to I just want to tell you about you know a little bit about myself. I'm I'm I'm basically I'm a I'm a Peterson. My my great-grandmother was Minnie. My great-grandmother was Minnie Peterson. Um and I was like, oh, I know Minnie Peterson. That that was the the High Divide book. So there's this book called High Divide, Minnie Peterson's Olympic Mountain Adventures. Minnie Peterson is this woman who I was talking to's great-grandmother or grandmother. They were the first white settlers of Forks, right? Which she made which she made sure to tell me. She made sure to tell me about how friendly they were with the Cool U kids and how, you know, welcoming they were to people of other colors and all of that. And, you know, she made sure to tell me that her her great-grandfather or grandfather, I can't quite remember, fought fought in World War II, and I was like, yeah, that's yeah, that's good. And then at a certain later point, she made sure to mention that he was on the the side of of the Nazis. I felt in a in a way specifically that she told me that she wanted to make sure that I understand that his involvement was necessary, that he he had to fight on the side of the Nazis. Right. That there was no other choice, they were in Croatia or something. You know, she said if you didn't fight, you'd you know, you died. You know, it only it only gets to that point after enough people stop speaking up. Right. So that's a large reason why I wanted to be there, because if we start speaking up, we get to the point where you have to be conscripted into your nation's military to commit atrocities, and there's nothing you can do about it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 9:11

At least right now, all of these jackasses who are in ICE are volunteering.

unknown: 9:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 9:18

You know, they're not being voluntold yet. No, they're absolutely volunteering. And that's worse in some ways. I mean it's how it starts. Right, it's of course, it's how it starts. And like I I wanted to bring up that this song by Chumbo Wambo, The Day the Nazi died, it was written in 1987, which is the year that I was born, which I like that. That's like neither here nor there. But what's interesting about it, and why it was so pertinent to like the moment, is this was a Charlie Kirk rally, it was held on his birthday, and it was meant to be the it was the kickoff rally for the local people who were wanting to start a chapter of Turning Point USA, which is Charlie Kirk's like group organization thing that he started. And like this all happened. Turning point spread even more and became like a a a focus of the nation because Charlie Kirk died. And what's really funny about this song is this song came out in 1987 as a response to every one of these neo-Nazis who came out in droves to celebrate and mourn the death of a known Nazi, Rudolf Hess. He was a high-ranking Nazi official who died in '87, and suddenly all of these neo-Nazis came out of the woodwork, and that's why they wrote it. And this is exactly what's happened with Charlie Kirk. And the the worst part of all of this is these people have no idea that they're fascists. They have no idea that they're Nazis. This is like my problem with all of this, is their faith leader is a local musician who leads a really awesome local band. There's two lead singers. And on his Facebook page it says like he says, like, artist something in like in unity. But he's a three-time Trump voter, which okay. But if you're still supporting him right now with what's happening in the world, with ICE, with what he's done to the constitution, with with with firing, um, and uh with uh unseating uh like uh elected officials, unseating elected officials and kicking judges out of their positions as judges because they ruled against something, and him actively firing anybody, even these comedians, pressuring companies to fire all these people about free speech. This guy pretends that he's about free speech while supporting a president who is obviously culling any speech that doesn't align with him. And this is my issue because like the number of messages I've got like and I've and comments I've gotten in the last couple of days about you should keep politics out of music because I made a post about this when I realized that he was leading, he was he volunteered to be the faith leader of this turning point USA chapter that's starting in our little small hometown. Yep, I was like, absolutely not. Like, that's not okay. I don't want a turning point chapter started here for a plethora of reasons. And if there is gonna be one, there's gonna be opposition. Right, exactly. And they need to know that. And I think the fact that you were the sole like pro um protester there shows that people are afraid. I've gotten so many messages thanking me for calling him out that people didn't know that he was MAGA, that he did that they didn't know he supported ICE, and they're not going to his shows anymore. Like they're which is marvelous. This is what we want. This is what I mean, it's what the the conservatives are doing all of the time. Every chance that they get when some liberal says something they don't like, they dox them. Five days after Charlie Kirk was shot, I got an article saying there were 66,000 liberals who were doxed, and dozens of them had already lost their jobs and been put on uh put on um put on furlough and all kinds of crap just because they laughed at a dead Nazi. The way that I laughed at a dead Nazi, and I got so much venom from all of these what I call sleepy Nazis. It's really dangerous. It's so dangerous. And this is like you've heard me talk on here before about the first settlers principle when I talk about American Nations by Colin Woodard and how he like maps out what the different unique cultures of America, North America are from east to west as it spread over time. And if the first like the and the principle, the first settlers principle is basically that the first people who settle an area with agriculture become the dominant culture, even when they are no longer the dominant demographic, their culture remains a dominant culture. In this case, a Nazi settled forks. Like a literal Nazi. That's that's what I'm inferring. That's what that's that's yeah, that's what we're putting together from her own story. That's wild, bro. Yeah, that's wild, bro. Because like we know that the Nazis didn't just disappear, we gave them new jobs in new places. I've got a whole podcast I'm planning on doing about how all of the Nazis went from went from Germany and got shipped to elsewhere and what what they continued to work on after Argentina and NASA. Argentina and NASA, those are the two biggest ones, absolutely. And we know this, like these are facts, and this is the problem that I have with conservatives, and I've talked on here before that conservatives, if you like we have a ton of data to show they're more homogenous in their beliefs. That's why they're way better at organizing. They're way better at organizing because they all believe the same way. And they all believe the same way because they're just believing what they were told as children. That's it. They're there they believe conservative American values through and through, the way that I did. I believed in Americans' conservative values through and through, all the way up till I was 19 and still believed I could pray the gay away and broke up with my first boyfriend because I wanted to give praying the gay away another try, even though I'd already done fasting and praying, and then a fasting a seven-day fast while praying, hoping and believing. I really truly believed that I would be the person to lead the charge for the entire nation that being gay is a choice and praying the gay away is a possibility. Yeah. But it's not. No. Which is why we have all of this evidence all over the news all the time about it's these homophobes who are like secretly gay.

SPEAKER_03: 15:58

Well, it's why the Republican National Convention crashes grinder wherever they go.

SPEAKER_02: 16:02

Everywhere they go. Yeah. Everywhere they go. And that's why they believe that there is a choice, because they're making a choice. Exactly. Because they have the they have the the the natural instinct to want to get railed in the butt, but they just choose not to. And so they just don't. And so they believe that it is a choice because they're making a choice. Right. And it's like, yeah, lying is a choice. That's what it boils down to. Lying is a choice. Yeah. So wow, what a mess. Like, what a freaking mess. I have no interest in having turning point USA here. And I'm like, thank you for going there and being that presence. Yeah. Genuinely, from the bottom of my heart. Yeah. I was shocked. I was genuinely shocked when I walked in and like saw your sign and was like, who this? Because I've never seen you like like you said, critical mass. By the time you get involved, it's like it's it's critical mass. But it hits different, don't it?

SPEAKER_03: 17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 17:01

Like when you're sitting there alone and surrounded. Okay, so tell me about So I'll keep going. Yeah, tell me about the Jesus Lady or Well, I'll I'll get to that.

SPEAKER_03: 17:09

But um so I'm talking with the pe one of the Petersons. Okay. One of the one of the one of the descendants of the people who founded Forks, however you want to frame that. Right. Before we finish talking, I I think, you know, we say something like, like it's important for us to be able to be in public spaces and have free speech. The guy who ha who came up immediately to where I was, he goes, Well, then why is your side so violent? And I go, Well, actually, like there's a study that was just removed from the White House.gov website showing that most political violence is actually committed by conservative right wing By right. Right wing extremists. Right, right. Right wing white extremists.

SPEAKER_02: 17:54

97. Yeah. White right wing extreme. We might as well call it the white w the white wing. Right. It sh it oughta just be the white wing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 18:01

So so I tell him that, and he goes, Oh, you're you're that's ridiculous, and and at that point I go in my mind, well, there's no point arguing with this person. Right. He's he's here to get a rise out of me so that he can have the power, I can do something quote unquote bad that puts me in a bad position and spins everything out. So so he goes, Joseph, you know, I have some statistics, you know, I that I could show you, and would you look at them? And I go, I'm sorry, but it's just that we're at this point now where I'm gonna have facts, you're gonna have facts, and we're gonna both call each other's facts false. Yeah. I'm just here to be uh a presence, I'm not here to argue, I'm not gonna argue with you. You can continue talking, you can continue talking to me, but I'm not gonna really interact with you. You do your thing. So he just continues to kind of talk at me, talk at me, kind of trying to get a rise out of me by questioning, you know, my masculinity or my courage or a whole number of things that I really and I just there singing along to the lyrics. Yeah, bobbing my head. Yeah, just singing along and petting my dog and being like, oh, you know, and I and you know how I talk to my dog. Yeah, you know, so like I'm just obviously not threatening, right? Like I'm like, sorry, honey, we can't go yet. We've got time to go, we have to stay. You know, she like jumps up on me and giving her kisses.

SPEAKER_02: 19:20

It's obvious the dog, not the lady.

SPEAKER_03: 19:22

The my dog, yeah. It's obviously I'm not there to um incite any violence. Right. You know, but he he won't leave, and that's fine. Um but then another older woman walks up. She wants to she wants to talk. I'm like, okay, absolutely. She has the dog, and you know, we're talking about dogs, and she's a dog trainer, and and we just talk for we just kind of bullshit back and forth. Again, I'm not trying to have a I'm gonna change your mind kind of conversation. Like I don't really believe that's possible. Right, not at this point. And I tell her that. She goes, Well, well, what do you think this is about? And I, well, Charlie Kirk was racist, bigoted, spreads hate, and she goes, Well, I don't know what racism is. What is it? And I basically go, You're an adult. You you know what racism is. Right. And she goes, Yeah, but I don't know what you mean by racism. And so we kind of go back and forth along that kind of line for a while. I keep trying to like drive it back to small talk, basically. You know, she worked at IBM, she lived in Juneau, Alaska, she worked in the Alaska legislature.

SPEAKER_02: 20:24

IBM is who provided all of the all of the machines for the Nazis to be able to keep track of all of the people they were exterminating.

SPEAKER_03: 20:33

Yeah, I didn't mention that. That's fun. But um But yeah, so we're just kind of talking back and forth. And eventually she, like I said, she's a politician. Oh she worked in the legislature. So she just keeps trying to bring it back around, bring it back around, and I just keep being like, sorry, I'm not here to do that. I'm just here to be an annoying an annoyance, really. Yeah. I'm just here to play this music and just um just be here and let people know that there are people who disagree. Yeah. Exactly. Don't want this here. Exactly. And and like, and like we're basically cuddled up next to each other. Like, like we're shoulder to shoulder, like touching each other, like with our hands, like here and there, being like, oh, that's silly, you know, like like really kind of friendly. Yeah. Like it felt good. It was like like it's kind of tongue-in-cheek, me being here, being like, you know, this is about free speech, and I just want everyone to have free speech. Like that was my um that was my like protection of being there. Of course. And so for a moment it felt cool to it to actually feel true. That like, yeah, there's this bullshit going on all around us, but but we can talk about old coding practices from when she worked at IBM. And I was like, like, that was really cool. And just shooting the shit. You know, just in a public space, there's obviously contention going on, but like we can just be here and like we're friendly, like, well, that sounds like little pats. And then I must have just evaded her one too many times where I was, I can't quite remember. Maybe I got snarky a little bit. I can't quite remember. I know at one point I was like, she was like, I I just don't know like what's like what's right white supremacy or what's racism. And I was like, Are you're you are you dumb? Like I might have said something like that. Right. Um because it was just it just got annoying how stupid she was playing. Right. This is a very educated woman. She worked in the Alaska legislature. Right. She's an educated woman, she knows what racism means. Right. And it's that kind of denial that playing dumb, which is the hallmark of turning point, you would say, and what has destroyed America debate. What has destroyed debate in America. Um which in turn Yeah, exactly. So I say something, I I evade her in some way, and and all of a sudden she um she starts to like kick at me and kick at my feet, which is where I have my speaker. My speaker is down by my feet that I'm playing the loop of the the song that we played for you earlier.

SPEAKER_02: 22:59

So she went from like sitting next to you, like talking and laughing and cuddling all next to me. Physical touch, yeah, like full-on, oh yeah, I'll hear let's just be super cozy.

SPEAKER_03: 23:09

To kicking my foot out of the way to to kick my speaker off the ledge. Yeah. And then she books it. Of course. The guy who again was standing there earlier was still standing there, and he he gets this childlike look on his face and goes, Oh, she got you. Um I stay there because I all of a sudden feel very exposed, very surrounded. And so I'm I'm calm, I keep collected, I I know I have my speaker down there, but I also have my sign up here, and I'm not gonna lose both. Right. So I stay and I'm like I just give him a look like you guys are some sneaky, sneaky little bitches. That's and um That's American conservatism in a nutshell to be. Yeah, and then he runs down the stairs and um grabs my speaker and throws it on top of a roof. I miss seeing him do that because I I muted it to hopefully maybe he won't find it. Right. Um once he leaves, I give it a minute, I look around, I'm like, okay, it doesn't look like anyone's gonna take my sign. Um and I go down and I'm looking for my speaker, and then some other friendly guy comes up and um he goes, Hey, did you like lose a cylinder thing from up there? And I'm like, Yeah, I just and he's like, Okay, yes, someone threw it on top of a roof. And he looks kind of ashamed because he is again probably one of those people who is kind of rose-colored glasses in terms of what these people are about. Right. And he and he was almost kind of like shocked. Like, and I just go, No, that's that's exactly what I would expect. And I wasn't angry or anything, I was just like, you know, it's nice to be proven right.

SPEAKER_02: 24:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 24:39

You know?

SPEAKER_02: 24:40

Yeah. I really like your cut your comment there about the rose-colored like glasses. It's like that that is where we're at. Like it's all r it's rose-colored racism, it's rose-colored sexism, it's rose-colored bigotry. All of these people are just turning their their their eyes completely blind away from the things that they say that they don't like and then actively support.

SPEAKER_03: 25:03

And what's hilarious in the turning point community is that they're all about critical thinking. Right. But it like it ends at their doorstep. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 25:11

Yeah. And the the only free speech is their speech.

SPEAKER_03: 25:14

And then there's that. Yeah. So, you know, we were all up there talking about how great free speech is, and and then the second that I dropped my guard, she um she impeded my free speech. Yeah. Technically assaulted me. Technically assaulted you. And then the other guy like stole from me. Destroyed your property. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 25:32

Like kicked your property and then threw it. Stole it and threw it on top of the roof.

SPEAKER_03: 25:36

Yeah. So these people care about law and order until it suits them.

SPEAKER_02: 25:39

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 25:40

Right. Well, they care about law and order as a way to as a way to um other those that they want to be ahead of. Right. Exactly. Which they want to win over.

SPEAKER_02: 25:50

Right. Yeah. It's that's that's disgusting. I it is but I do have to say, we I have received two messages from the organizers, um, uh where they have uh where they have apologized. The Jeremy guy, that is the lead or one of the lead singers of Super Nostalgic, one of the local bands here, he um that mega that mega mega guy, he messaged and or commented back when I made a video post about this saying that like this happened. This is how you guys act on day one. On day one, you're supposed to be about tolerance and debate, and this is how you act on day one. And he said he apologized and they're working on getting the speaker back, which is great. I'm glad that they are working that they're working toward that. Um and they said if the another the other guy that messaged said if it's damaged, that they will pay for it to pay for a new one, um, if it is damaged, but that Jeremy is working on getting it back.

SPEAKER_03: 26:48

So what they should really do is announce the name of those two members of their community and publicly call them out. They should if they really cared about their the integrity of their organization. They would hold those people accountable because they know exactly who it is.

SPEAKER_02: 27:01

Right. But the their version is to do all of this in-house the way that police do. The police investigate the police to find out the police did nothing wrong because the police don't have to follow laws, they only have to follow their own policies. This is exactly what all of these conservative right-wing nut job groups do. They investigate themselves to find out they did nothing wrong, and then go, oh hooray, we're great. God loves us. Like, and oh, I I don't know if we mentioned or not that the lady who kicked your speaker down, tell me about her hat. Oh, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03: 27:31

So she was wearing a a white, white hat with a red bill with red lettering that said, I love Jesus.

SPEAKER_02: 27:38

I love Jesus. We love Jesus. Some of y'all motherfuckers need Satan. I'm just saying. Or or actually Jesus. Or actually Jesus. Either one's fine. Yeah. Either one is genuinely fine.

SPEAKER_03: 27:50

Whatever this weird commercialized version of Jesus is in America is not it.

SPEAKER_02: 27:54

Oh my god. It is so not it. But like it it all fits, and this is this is all gonna be in the the book and the the the new book coming on on uh religious trauma and on the podcast, but all of it fits into this whole like bullshit end of times thing that started as soon as Israel became a thing. As soon as Israel became Israel in 1948, all of these old biblical um philosophies got reactivated by televangelists and and radio preachers as like, oh, look, it's prophecy coming to life in real time. The end of times are now, and what does that mean? It means that there are seven phases coming, and the last one before church ruling everything is law and order, which just means that anybody who's not the church is going to be arrested, murdered, locked away, whatever, and they're a hundred percent down for it. They want this thing because it fits with their worldview, it fits with their religion and their doctrine, their philosophies, and their prophecies. And they're like, Yeah, it's the end of times, things are gonna get worse before they get better, and they want more violence. That's why 97% of the terrorism that has happened in the United States over the course of our history has all been from right wing white extremists. It's mad. So I want to say thank you. Yeah, my my pleasure. Thank you. Um and I I got to see you after, and I got to see how like it is it is biologically taxing. It is biologically taxing to go through something like that. Um I got to see you after, and I got to see the waves come of like the the startling again of just like all of a sudden you're there again and you have to like move through that, and I saw you move through what I call the sour adrenaline phase when it's like it no longer amps you up anymore, it just hits you and makes you more tired. It's exhausting. I've been many times the only. Person at a protest. The up I was the protest. You were the protest. And it is unlike anything else because you were really putting your neck out there and it's taxing. So I want to say thank you. Thank you for being there. Yeah. I wish I could have, but I don't think I would have handled it as well as you did. So w good on you.

SPEAKER_03: 30:21

Yeah, there's different there's different ways of protest and different ways of interacting with people. And um yeah, I was um my my my goal again was very intentional to to not really engage politically. Right. Absolutely engage conversationally. Yeah. Um small talk, town, you know, what we like, like hobby, you know, just like dogs, like it was like like keep it light. We're not gonna solve the issue here. Me right me changing your mind is is is not gonna change things. Like these are bigger issues, is how I feel. So I wasn't there trying to change people's minds, I was just there to be a presence.

SPEAKER_02: 31:00

Okay. So it sounds like you were trying to be like an opposite like to voice opposition without burning any bridges.

SPEAKER_03: 31:09

Yeah, I was just there to be an annoyance, just uh a very obvious, a very obvious, non-threatening presence.

SPEAKER_02: 31:18

Good.

SPEAKER_03: 31:18

Yeah. Cool.

SPEAKER_02: 31:20

I mean that makes sense. That's definitely a way. But very clearly opposed to what was going on. Right. You know, the no the no Nazis, no kings, no fascist ideologies. Yeah. Made that clear, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_03: 31:31

I almost wanted to do f no fascist idolatry. Because like they're worshiping this Charlie Craig, like he but but religious freedom. So I don't care about idolatry. You know, like you can worship whatever you want. So that's why I landed on ideology.

SPEAKER_02: 31:47

Yeah, yeah. It is fun to call them out on their hypocrisies, but it only goes so far, you know. It really does. Wow. That's the the hypocrisy is what pisses me off. The it's it's the hypocrisy of pretending to be kind, pretending to care, pretending to be friendly with a person, just to wait until they piss you off and then take it out on them in a way that you know you can get away with because you're a little old white lady who then as soon as you did it ran away. Which I heard that she actually went to Jeremy and told him what happened immediately.

SPEAKER_03: 32:27

See, I was looking for her, she must have taken off her hat or something, because I was scanning that crowd for that woman. I bet. Yeah, I I I thought she just booked it out of there, so I think it's hilarious that she o owned up to it. And I want to know who that woman is, and I want to know who that guy is. Yeah, that's pathetic. It's pathetic behavior. It's it is, it's just hypocritical. And these are you know, I'm an adult, like I'm almost 40. These were more adults than me. You know, like they were older than me, and just childish. Childish petty behavior.

SPEAKER_02: 33:03

And this is what we expect from turning point USA. This is why we don't want turning point USA in our town.

SPEAKER_03: 33:09

I actually expect a little more violence from Turning Point, which is why when um when this happened, when the when it culminated, and I realized I wasn't getting my speaker back, and I went and grabbed my sign, instead of heading back the way I came, which is up the staircase, I decided to take the long way around because above me, on the landing, directly above me, were were three Proud Boy looking guys. You can look up Proud Boys if you don't know what they were, but they're a white supremacist group. And uh they were just standing up there staring staring at me. I think they kind of expected me to leave in their direction. And so um So yeah, once that happened, I I it's not that I didn't feel safe, but I recognized the potential for injury, for harm, for yeah, for the situation to go bad. Took a different route. When I was when I was there with my speaker, I hadn't been attacked. I felt like, okay, like we're all being adults and we're all being Americans here. Right. You know? Wow. And once once that happened, I was like, okay, well, this is no longer like I'm the only one here. I've obviously just been like shown to be weak, you know? Like so my animal's instincts kicked in, and I was like, all right, well, we're gonna slowly get out of here. I made sure to start recording. Good. Immediately, I had a phone around my neck and I immediately started recording. And I I got a good good um a good frame of the the guy standing above me on the staircase. And yeah, I slowly made my way out of there. I went down to the rally and I stood there, looked at everyone, played my music from the rooftop for another minute, had my sign, and then um and then yeah, I got out of there. You know, I was cognizant of the fact that you know they could be following me, so I I made sure to get to my car quickly. And I've never felt that way in Port Angeles before. Yeah, and these are the Christians. And these are the Christians. But that's what you'd expect from KKK Christians.

SPEAKER_02: 34:53

Right, which is kind of like most of what's left. Any but like most good Christians I know don't even call themselves Christians. I've gotten many a message just in the last few in the last few days from people who were like, uh I'm like I was a Christian, but now I call myself a Jesus lover because Christians have such a bad name because they're well, they shoot up schools and they they shoot Charlie Kirk.

SPEAKER_03: 35:19

Yeah, their ideology facilitates a lot of violence.

SPEAKER_02: 35:21

Yeah, it does. And like and to have a person like Trump on the Oval Office, like saying that and planting evidence, like having all this trans stuff written on the supposed bullets. Well, then an article just came out two days ago saying that those bullets don't match the gun that shot it. They were literally just planted.

SPEAKER_03: 35:44

And you know, like But it doesn't matter to them. But like I said to the guy, like we're at this point now where I'm gonna have facts, you're gonna have facts, and we're both gonna call each other's facts false. So they've heard a narrative that works for them that the shooter was in a trans relationship, and so that checks other boxes and they move on. They're like, that makes sense. And and everyone else who's not on their side goes, Oh, it was that Gruper, same guy, same hyper conservative guy, except our narrative is is that Charlie Kirk was killed because he wasn't conservative enough. You know, like that's what I told the guy. He was he Charlie Kirk was killed because he wasn't conservative enough. Yeah. You know, so we just we all have our own alternative facts and our false news now. It's just the state that we're in. It it is and So that's why I wasn't trying to argue with anyone. Because that's that's it just goes downhill and that's what turning point I mean that's that is what happened to turning point. Literally. It just goes you know, it just devolves until the leader dies. Yeah, because they're not actually there to debate, they're there to indoctrinate.

SPEAKER_02: 36:44

Right. That's why it was a 30-year-old debating a bunch of 18-year-olds. Right. It has nothing to do with education. If um and if it did have anything to do with education, they would become liberals because we have that science of w how homogenous those conservative right-wing values are, and then when pe when a person who maintains those conservative right-wing values, like I did, moves away from our conservative small towns and are forced into places with diversity, diversity of thought, diversity of race, diversity of culture, diversity of of skin. Like these are the exposure to these things make us more liberal. Because it turns out that the only neurological difference from between the primary, not the only, the primary, the biggest difference between neurologically in a brain, between a self-selected conservative and a self-selected liberal across cultures, regardless of political affiliation, and I'm adding all of these little commas because all of these were actually variables that were accounted for. They all have this the the uh conservatives have an immediate judgment on disgust. That's the difference, is when a conservative feels disgust, it um the thing to know about this is that disgust there's an area of the brain that handles disgust. And it doesn't differentiate between if you see someone doing something that you think is morally reprehensible uh or if you were to eat a handful of poo. It doesn't differentiate. The same part of the brain mixes up, like or stirs up. So the brain mixes up those signals and goes something that I view to be morally reprehensible just because it's not my culture and I've never been exposed to it, stimulates the same visceral response that eating literal shit does. And if you're conservative and you ha you haven't had nearly as much exposure, you don't need to second guess that response. And everyone around you has the same response, which tells you that it's right. And so this is why I don't want bigots gathering. I don't want TP USA gathering, because it's just more it's more conservative people who are undereducated, underexposed, re-emphasizing the same lies that conservative uh conservative America raised them with, and it makes them feel more right. When we have randomized controlled trials, we have meta-analyses, we have we have uh like w we have retrospective reviews, we have all kinds of data that show that if you are exposed to more education and more types of people, you across the board become more liberal. Which and this is validated even further by the fact that liberals have a much wider I guess perspectives on things or not perspective perspective is the wrong word. They they're wider in what they believe, as far as the the the right is very homogeneous, they all believe believe the same thing. And the left are not they don't believe the same thing as the right, but they also don't believe the same thing as each other. Which is why we can't organize. The left isn't organized because everybody's like, oh, actually, you know what? Well, I learned that that's wrong, but I don't know exactly what is right. And that's where the liberals are at, is we know that like fascism is wrong, but we can't all agree on what is right because there is no right or wrong way. You just have to try a thing and hopefully don't and don't central don't let power centralize, because that's what ruins everything. But this is why I don't want turning point here. They re-emphasize the same racist ideologies, and they like they foment racism. They foment racism over and over and over again. It's really disgusting.

SPEAKER_03: 40:44

Racism and um just bigotry in general, like trans bigotry, homophobia, right?

SPEAKER_02: 40:52

Like there are every social issue possible, their view is the single most disgusting. I don't think that they should be allowed to vote on social issues. If you want to vote on fiscal issues or how to run this or what like whatever, fine. But social issues, you don't get a vote because you're a fucking racist. For the same reason that the plumber doesn't get to do a hysterectomy. Just because they're called tubes don't mean they're the same. I don't think that that's okay. That we should have people that are consistently siding with racism, sexism, misogyny, like homophobia, transphobia. We shouldn't be allowing these people to make decisions about the people's lives that they hate. Yeah. That's insane to me. And yeah, well, I could I could rant on about this forever, and I won't, because the podcast is a little bit over time. This is thank you so much. Yeah. This has been really good. Is there anything else that you want to add? What like what's what's your takeaway from all of this? Like, how are you gonna interact with this moving forward? Do you know? Because I mean I know this just happened yesterday.

SPEAKER_03: 42:02

I'm I mean, I'm planning to be if they have another public rally, I will be there with a louder speaker. Good. And I will and I will do the same thing I did, but I I won't have the um naivety of thinking that these people being friendly for me is for any other reason than to try to attack me. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 42:22

That is unfortunately a lesson I learned growing up in church.

SPEAKER_03: 42:25

Yeah, and so that's what I just learned. Like that that's just my new experience with these people is they will be nice to you, but it's just to get close enough to attack you.

SPEAKER_02: 42:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 42:32

I'm sorry that you experienced that.

SPEAKER_02: 42:35

I'm not. But it's I'm not. I'm I'm glad that you have the lesson. Yeah. I'm really glad that you have the lesson because people don't believe it until you experience it. They see these little old the nice ladies with their I Love Jesus hat sitting next to you being all cuddled up, and then they don't see that one little moment of the aggression.

SPEAKER_03: 42:53

Well, and that's what's fun about um looking into people who study history and and how vocal they are about the the role that white women play in maintaining power struct in maintaining the power structure. Like they're the nice veneer.

SPEAKER_02: 43:08

They are.

SPEAKER_03: 43:08

They're they are what sidle up to you all sweet and nice and stick exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 43:13

Right. That's why that's why every Fox News, every every news anchor, Fox News is just the worst at having them all look exactly the same and be the same blonde and the same face, and they're all the those are some of my favorite news clips is having all the it's usually female anchors, but it's all of the anchors saying the exact same thing word for word for word for word, but they they give you the pretty white women right up front.

SPEAKER_03: 43:34

And it's so yeah, I feel a little bit less safe in my town. I feel a little bit more exposed. Yeah, that's just what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02: 43:42

Have you ever have you ever felt like targeted and unsafe previously?

SPEAKER_03: 43:46

No. Never. No. Wow. Like I said, when I show up to the protest, it's it's critical mass. Right. You know? I I'm um I'm used to being in the majority of people who are like, this is fucking bullshit. Not the one person being like, this is fucking bullshit.

SPEAKER_02: 44:04

Ugh. Well, thank you for going, and thank you for saying that this is fucking bullshit. Because it is fucking bullshit. It's fucking bullshit. Which is why fuck super nostalgia. I will never, I will never go to one of their shows again because their leader is a proud supporter of Donald Trump and ICE, and he pretends to b care about unity and then actively supports ripping children from their families, locking them in cages, and the 2600 people that were shipped off to the El Salvadorian prison when all of this first began are now just missing. They're not available anywhere. There's no trace of them. They're just gone.

SPEAKER_03: 44:43

And that that's the playbook. It's it's the it's it's what that woman did. You you're nice, you s you get people to cuddle up to you, and then um if there's a chance for you to get ahead, you you attack. Yep. The second that you can.

SPEAKER_02: 44:58

Win them over with kindness and stab them in the back. Stab him in the back. That that is white conservative America. That's what we did to the Native Americans. Yep. And it's what we're continuing to do today. Ugh. Well, thank you so much. If you made it to the end of this podcast, I really appreciate it. This one's a doozy. It hits close to home. Not just because it's my small town, but it's also my partner, and this is my life and my livelihood as a musician. This stuff is really important to me, and to and my morality is really important to me, and it's clearly important to you. So thank you very much, Michael, for being a part of this conversation. Thank you for coming onto the podcast. And thank you for listening. If you feel like if you feel like supporting the show, then go into the notes. There's a you can buy me a coffee or whatever you feel like doing. Please leave a comment, share this with some friends, spread it, especially if you're local. If you live in Port Angeles or Washington or Squim or Forks or Joyce or any of these little areas around here, please send this to your friends. We need to get the word out about these people.

SPEAKER_03: 46:03

One thing I actually do want to say is if they do have another rally, I hope I'm not the only person protesting.

SPEAKER_02: 46:09

Ugh. Well, you heard it. I hope that you guys come out and join this protest. Um, especially for any of y'all avoidant types, this is a perfect way for you to use your avoidance like l as a strengthness. I talk about this all the time. It's a strengthness. This is my this is my wheelhouse, baby. The chronic stress adaptation. If you are really good at ignoring all of the awful things, then you're perfect for one of these small protests, because you can just show up and just crank up the petty baby. So I hope that you will join Michael at the next one of these. I really appreciate you listening. Like I said, buy me a coffee, whatever, send this to your friends, and remember, stay curious and stay uncomfortable.