Speak Plainly Podcast
Hosted by 2 time best-selling trauma author, Owl C Medicine. A veteran of the US Military, Owl's no nonsense approach to mental physical and relational health is exactly what you didn't know you need. Listen in for ideas worth chewing on and science based tools for living life after trauma.
Speak Plainly Podcast
The Revolution is Personal Evolution: Unpacking Societal Change From within w/ Behavioralist Jess Doenges
In a conversation that's as timely as it is timeless, my incredible friend Jess and I unpack the notion that "The Revolution is Personal Evolution." With Presidents Day providing the backdrop and Black History Month lending its rich context, we couldn't have chosen a more opportune moment to dive into this transformative topic. By revisiting the legendary Gil Scott-Heron's "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised," we draw a compelling line connecting the personal upheavals we experience to the seismic shifts our society undergoes.
Join us as we peel back the layers of our personal stories and discover the ripple effect they have on the world around us. Jess and I get candid about our individual paths and the lessons learned along the way, providing you with a treasure trove of insights that promise to shake up your perspective. We're here to show you that true change doesn't flash across your TV screen—it starts in the mirror. Get ready to be inspired by a dialogue that doesn't just talk the talk but walks you through the very steps of personal revolution, one that ignites the sparks of societal transformation.
Music by Wutaboi
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I, I, hey everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the speak plainly podcast, where we speak plainly about things that matter. I am your host, our medicine, and I first off want to say thank you for coming here today. I know there are lots of places where you could go and spend your time and spend your attention, and you have Purposely chosen to come to a place where you can learn something and improve yourself. Thank you for that. On today's podcast, I have a friend with me that I'm very excited for you to meet. Just don't just say hi, jess, hi, jess, yay.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me on. It's really good to be here. I'm really excited for this conversation. It's gonna be really really fun. We always have good ones. We really do so in today's podcast, where we actually just decided that there was a time that we came up with a title. Well, jess said the title and I was like, oh, that's gonna be a podcast and we're just gonna kind of go with it. And the title that we came up with today, or for today's podcast, is the revolution is personal evolution. Amen, amen to that. And we think this is perfect one.
Speaker 1:We're recording this on Presidents Day, which is kind of hilarious because it's also Black History Month, and that's why we really wanted to get this in before February was over, because I don't know how many of you Listening are familiar with this old song from the 70s, but was also a poem called the revolution will not be televised. When I heard it it blew my mind because I was like one how is this music? They're like they talk the whole time, but it's totally a song, but I Really like this. So we're gonna start by reading this poem and then we're gonna get into a little bit of our backgrounds and why we think that the revolution. And the reason the revolution will not be televised is because the revolution is personal evolution. So the revolution will not be televised is a song and poem by Gil Scott Herron, and it goes a little something like this you will not be able to stay home, brother, you will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out, you will not be able to lose yourself on scag and skip out on beer during commercials, because the revolution will not be televised. The revolution will not be televised. The revolution will not be brought to you by Xerox in four parts without commercial interruptions. The revolution will not show you pictures of Nixon blowing a bugle and leading a charge by Joni Mitchell, general Abrams and Spyro Agnew to eat hogmoths confiscated from Harlem Sanctuary. The revolution will not be televised. The revolution will not be brought to you by the Schaefer Award theater and will not star Natalie Woods and Steve McQueen or Bullwinkle and Julia. The revolution will not give your mouth sex appeal. The revolution will not get rid of the nubs. The revolution will not make you look five pounds thinner. Because the revolution will not be Televised, brother. There will be no pictures of you and Willie May pushing that shopping cart down on the block on the dead run or trying to slide that color TV into a stolen ambulance. Nbc will not be able to predict the winner at 832 or report from 29 districts.
Speaker 1:The revolution will not be televised. There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down brothers on the instant replay. There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down brothers on the instant replay. There will be no pictures of Whitney Young being run out of Harlem on a rail with a brand new process. There will be no slow motion or still lives of Roy Wilkinson Strolling through Watts in a red, black and green liberation jumpsuit that he had been saving for just the proper occasion. Green Acres, beverly Hillbillies and Hutterville Junction will no longer be so damned relevant and women will not care if Dick Finally got down with Jane on search for tomorrow, because black people will be in the streets looking for a brighter day.
Speaker 1:The revolution will not be televised. There will be no highlights on the 11 o'clock news and no pictures of hairy armed women, liberationists and Jackie on ass is blowing her nose. The theme song will not be written by Jim Webb or Francis Scott Key, nor sung by Glenn Campbell, tom Jones, johnny Cash, engelbert Humperdink or the Rare Earth, because the revolution will not be televised. The revolution will not be right back after another message about a white tornado or white lightning or white people. You will not have to worry about a dove in your bedroom, the tiger in your tank or the giant in your toilet bowl. The revolution will not go better with coke. The revolution will not fight germs that may cause bad breath. The revolution will put you in the driver's seat. The revolution will not be televised. The revolution will not be televised. The revolution will not be televised. The revolution will be no reruns brothers. The revolution will be live.
Speaker 2:Awesome, god, isn't that great. It is, and that's the thing about great writing it never goes out of style. It still pertains to everything I mean that was written in long before the internet, oh yeah, long before, when they were three channels, not even cable yet, and yet all the principles he's speaking to, all the things, still apply 100%.
Speaker 1:They do. Yeah, and that's one a sign of a sign of great writing, like you said, and to a sign of how, sadly, things haven't quite changed as far as the revolution goes. The more they change, the more they stay the same. They sure do. I definitely remember a time not very long ago in my life where all I wanted was for the revolution to happen and everything to Be crumble, and I kept expecting it to happen. It kept seeming like it was going to happen, and then it never came, and now I'm just chronically disappointed that the world hasn't already burned, but whatever. So this is, this is the. This is the center of the conversation that we're having today is the revolution is not going to be televised, because the revolution is, by necessity, originating in each and every one of us. So, to get us to this conversation, I'm gonna have Jess here talk to you about a bit of his journey to become the person that he is today and why we're having this conversation.
Speaker 2:Alrighty then. Well, yeah, I'm, I'm Jess, and I didn't really start looking at the world until, you know, a little bit late, a little bit later in life, well as well, into my 20s, because, like most people, I was just too busy trying to put food on the table and pay your mortgage and live there at race and work a lot of hours, and that's why I always try to have empathy for people who don't you know. Well, maybe not be aware of certain things, when I'm knowing certain things. People are busy, people are trying to.
Speaker 2:Trying to take care of themselves and feed their families. But as soon as I started become aware of things, I Always tried to prioritize my issues and there were two things that are always important to me, and since we're not to cut you off, I want to know what.
Speaker 1:What was, what was the impetus that got that made you do that, because, like you said, everybody's busy. What was it that changed for you that gave you the chance to really start thinking about this stuff?
Speaker 2:I'd say one of the original impetus is was when I was, is the plural of impetus impedi I.
Speaker 1:Don't know, but I like that word impedi, impedi, impedi.
Speaker 2:Was. You know, I grew up a little, I won't say. I won't say racist, you know, but I'll say prejudice, because prejudice to me always means ignorant, whereas racist means hate. So I grew up a little bit prejudice, growing up in a very middle-class white neighborhood in Eastern Queens, and just Certain things that were assumed just by things that you see around you, you know, when you see on the news all the people being getting arrested for violent crimes or black people and all this is this is what you see all the time. So there's some little hidden assumptions that you don't even realize that you have.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, you know, and I've always been Curious. I always been curious to go to the bad neighborhoods and the black neighborhoods and just sometimes I would just go, I would drive there as a 17 year old, 18 year old and just randomly hang out on a street corner and Strike up conversations with people that would walk by because I was just curious, they just wanted to learn. Yeah, but when I became aware is when I transferred my job. I was working for the school system when I was 18 years old and I had an opportunity to transfer to Harlem and work there, and when I did that you get to know people, you get to know the community, you get to see everything, and that's when I really became aware that I had all these hidden assumptions that I didn't realize I was having Mm-hmm, and that's when you start opening your eyes to well, why am I seeing all this all over the place?
Speaker 2:Why am I seeing this on the TV? Why am I seeing this everywhere? So I think that was the original impetus for knowing that things were not quite right. I think knowing that things weren't fair, and my main focus, like I was gonna say before this, this interruption was always prioritizing issues, and the first, the biggest two issues for most of my life I'd say it's gotten a little more complicated the last five years, but the two biggest issues would be illegal war and illegal incarceration. Yeah, and both of those things affect black and brown people more than anything else that I can think of they were still to this day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right. So when I first went to why I first went to Harlem, that was the first feeling I got. I saw all the buildings Bored it up. There were hardly any businesses and the few businesses were there, usually run by Koreans or Chinese and I was like I Just remember, you know realizing like wow, when I grew up, I was 13 years old working in a gas station, I was 14 years old working in an Italian restaurant, I was 15 years old working in this place and I had all these opportunities all around. And I'm looking around this neighborhood I'm like what is there? There's no opportunity.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, that's a, no, that's an eye-opener.
Speaker 2:There's absolutely no opportunity. And then you start looking at things like why are there prisons filled up with black people when every single study in the history of the world shows that drug use is equal across every race, every class, every age, every nationality? You know might be different drugs, you know they might have, every group has their own thing they'd like to do, but the actual drug use is equal. Every study in the world has shown this. Nothing's ever shown against it. So why are the prisons filled up with nonviolent felons of black and brown people constantly? And once you start down the road it's kind of hard to stop.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, that's a great place to launch off into like. We know, and I've mentioned before in the podcast, that Cops start in the United States, started as slave chasers, and that's how. That's how they started and it's never changed. The United States has been built upon slavery and and it hasn't changed. It's still the same. We're still using people the black people in prisons today to make shit for us, as well as basically Creating slavery in foreign countries that we don't think of as slavery because it's out of sight, out of mind, not in our jurisdiction and we don't own them, but it when you are in a place like you have been talking about, where you have no opportunity.
Speaker 1:Whatever opportunity is presented to you, no matter how garbage, whether that's joining a gang or joining a sweatshop To be able to pay the bills, that's all you get. Mm-hmm, that's all you get. That's why the revolution like has to happen is because the, the narrative, is so well controlled by the media and that and like, and we both agree. People are basically good. Yes, people at their core are basically good. I believe that the way I put it is like in like, individuals are fantastic. People suck. It's just group mindset that sucks my mentality.
Speaker 1:Yeah exactly, but at the heart, at the heart of us, I think we're all good people and it's just that lack of exposure that you were talking about that raises all of us to be prejudiced. I know I sure was. I didn't like. I grew up in a completely white everything area. I didn't see my first black person until sixth grade in real life. It was just something I'd seen on TV and I thought I was. I was like oh, your hair is so different and like it was. It was just totally different for me. And Then I Well then I got transferred. Well, I joined the military at 18 and then I went from melting pot.
Speaker 1:It is such a melting pot. And then I went from small town Indiana to Washington DC, like the chocolate city, like it doesn't get blacker than DC unless we're talking Atlanta like, and then they kind of a throwdown about it, the it's and man and what. What I realized. What was interesting for me was what I realized joining the military with being such a melting pot and my best friend there being a Mexican lesbian, and then all of my other closest friends that lived in in Southeast DC, which is where I was, which is the worst part of DC. I on a couple of occasions had to find new routes home because they were dead bodies in the streets, like all old school with Little orange tags and the chalk lines and shit. I was like again I was like this is.
Speaker 2:I thought it was only in movies, but it's.
Speaker 1:It was a rough area and what I realized is for me, I Got along really well with the Latino, with the Latinos and the black people in DC, because what I realized was being raised broke is being raised broke.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And there are unique struggles to being Latino and there are unique struggles to being black that I will never have to deal with, but a lot of the core culture comes from suck at the fuck up and survive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's something that I definitely had, coming from a broke white trash family, family of factory workers in the Midwest, so, but I still had all of my military stuff and I was burying people for a living and all of that. And then my brother died and so and I started to put a few things together but I really just was very closed off through the military and then, as I Opened up but I mean, I very closed off emotionally but I was exposed to so many things that it started opening me up cognitively. Before I was ever opened up anything close to emotionally, I was able to do that whole the Cognitive empathy kind of thing of being like, oh, okay, and seeing Saying things a little bit differently and being like, wow, I was really sheltered, I'm like in a lot of ways, just because of the Geography of where I was born, and I think that's an important thing to Remember is that each of us are in our own little bubble.
Speaker 2:Yes, we are. And I grew up in New York City and you know, one could look at the two of us and say, okay, I always grew up in Indiana and you could have assumptions about that. Oh, just grew up in New York, so he was obviously prone to see a lot more of a melting pot and see everything. But no, you'd be surprised, neighborhoods are still segregated everywhere. Oh yeah, like I grew up in an area of Queens where you'd have to go a good 45 blocks one direction or 45 in another direction To find the first black person. Wow, you know. And there are people who live their entire lives in New York in these little bubbles. I actually, when I came out to a small town out here, I actually said you know what? In certain ways this is actually less segregationist than New York, because in New York there's so many options. Not only do you have your neighborhood of 40 blocks by 40 blocks, but you can go to your club right your bar with everything is so niche Yep.
Speaker 2:Everything is so niche. You can go to the Jamaican Club or the black club or the the Latino Club, right, but in a small town everyone goes to the same bar, right. So even though you have less minorities, everyone's still going to the same place, right? So there's pros and cons to both. But, yeah, we could still stay segregated almost anyway. When I grew up, I moved to a much more Mixed neighborhood, yeah, and I enjoyed that. It would had pretty much everything in it and I enjoyed that. But, um, just going back to the thing about the drugs, I wanted to make one point with there, you know, the black and brown people are filled up the jails when drug use is equal, you know, and I would always hear white contemporaries talking about well, you know the, the facts are there, the stats are there, they're all the ones in jail because they're ones getting caught. And I would always be like well, put a little stop and frisk policy down on Wall Street, watch those jails get filled up.
Speaker 2:You know, real quickly so sometimes the laws are racist, you know, sometimes they'll. Okay, there's a bigger sentence for crack than there is for cocaine. There's like now, there's a racist law, you know, but sometimes the laws are not racist, but it's the implementation, mm-hmm, the culture, and you know. And how do you fight that? Touching on the other part, that's the illegal, the illegal incarceration, talking about the illegal war and staying with the theme of the Revolution will not be televised.
Speaker 2:A huge wake-up call to me was Was right after 9-11, and I was there for that. So I have a, you know, very interesting story of when, you know, 9-11 hit. I got up on my roof and I actually saw the second explosion. I had two thoughts in my head when I'm standing up there and just watching the explosion and watching the smoke. I lived about 15 blocks away from the East River and I only had two thoughts in my head at the exact moment, and the first thought was, Obviously, oh my god, all those poor people. And my second thought was, oh my god, we're gonna be in the Middle East for the next 30 years. Wow, you know, because I just smelt the propaganda and then, and then for six months after that, this was back. We won't get into this, but this is back when I actually trusted MPR.
Speaker 2:And they were pretty good and they were pretty good they would be. They would be covering all these huge anti-war protests, you know. They'd be covering the fact that all these victims of the families of 9, 11 was saying no, no, no, don't start a war in our name. We're good Like, let us. Let us grieve, right, you know, let us have time.
Speaker 2:But no, don't put this in our name. You know we don't want to start a war anywhere. You know, and MPR would be covering these huge anti-war protests. You know thousands and thousands of people. And then I turned on the news that night and they would have a pro-war pro. After all, the anti-war people left, they'd set up like 15 people to have a pro-war protest and that will be on the news and it just hurt my head. And that's when I really started to awaken. You know, to know this other before the internet was around, but it wasn't like everyone had it you know, and and so most people were relying on the news.
Speaker 2:But that's that's when my eyes really open like there's shit going on behind the scenes here. That doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1:And you know, this is a perfect example too, because I I just saw a video where this guy decided to an American decided to go like an annoying white, rich American guy decided to go to Japan to To find people who hated Americans at Hiroshima and he went there and you know how many who found that hated Americans?
Speaker 1:Zero, zero, motherfucking zero. And the reason that they all gave these individuals going back to personal, the individuals who went through that, who were survivors and descendants of survivors, and that sort of thing the reason that they said they don't hate Americans is because all they want is peace, and peace never comes from hate Exactly Never. And this is why it's so important to do the personal evolution part Right, because and why mass media is so dangerous, because we want to be outraged on principle, and that's a dangerous road when you're distant from the, from the actual event, like I'm a very principled person and my values are very important to me and all of that. But it reminds me of a book my friend had called the the um, it was the tyranny of the expert. Oh, yes.
Speaker 1:And it's so good, because it's about exactly this of like the expert and the principles that they know and like the systems and all of that. And when you go and you try to take an expert's Philosophy or an expert's plan and implement it into a situation that they've never been in, even though they're the expert, it very rarely, if ever, works. But if you leave it the fuck alone and you let people who actually survived personally through whatever the trauma was, they spontaneously create their own grassroots solutions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm glad you brought me back on on task with the theme of the thing, because we didn't want to sit here and talk about the problems all day long. We could all sit here and think about, talk about that and speak to our echo chambers and mentally masturbate to that all day Long, but where that leads to is like oh okay, so you're talking about revolutions, so you got to change all this stuff. You need revolution. Well, how are you going to get that revolution riot?
Speaker 1:by force.
Speaker 2:If you get it by force, like, oh, you're going to fight the government, you got to get all your guns, you got to do all the things. Well, if you, even if you succeed, what are you replacing it with? Did you just take it back by the breaking the same principles that they were breaking the entire time? So what, what are you left with there? What are you going to rebuild with if you don't have those principles right there? Right? So I think that's a really good point and the the revolution. You know, in my opinion, what I've come to. I'm I'm 54 years old now and I've been active in geo politics and being aware of all the things for 30 years now. And that's what I'm fully convinced with there's no, there's no fighting and winning.
Speaker 2:You know, not against some, any kind of external thing, right, you know we have to lead by example, and one of my favorite activists, you know, she's always told me you know it starts with how you raise your children. Absolutely, you know, are you going to be an authoritarian in your own home? Right, and then fight authoritarianism out in the world when it affects you in a negative way.
Speaker 2:You know, are you going to allow your children to be free and be creative and do whatever leads them? You know, I mean that's that's a big part of it, not that you have to have children to do this, because really, at the end of the day, it's a personal thing. You're not going to allow your children to do this if you haven't done that work yourself.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and the thing about fighting our government and things that are worth fighting is the reason they're worth fighting is because they have, they've created massive problems, and we've had this conversation before. Massive problems come from massive systems, and those massive systems have power, and then, if you actually somehow do manage to make any kind of dent in that system, you have to have a motivation that holds you through the years and years and years, the decades or more of effort, and very few things Can provide enough impetus to do that, and one of the few things is anger and hatred, yeah, or that enemy and that the man. I've used it for years. That shit can keep you going, and it is a, it is a, it is a fire that burns man, and it will keep you on the edge and keep you doing things but one. It will burn you out.
Speaker 1:Most importantly, though, especially when, because you brought up children If even if it doesn't happen immediately, generationally you being Angry and pissed, and even though it's for all the right reasons and whatnot, the way that you exist and live your life is going to be so uncomfortable for your children that your children Will then flip and go in the complete opposite way that you have been wanting and feeling that you have been like I I did everything right. I've like I, I did the work and I'm putting it over here and I've put my life into all of this and they just don't get it. And no, it's it's it's. It is about the way that you carry yourself karma doesn't care if you justified.
Speaker 1:Oh, bitch Ow, that's good. I haven't heard that one before. Karma doesn't care if you're justified, jesus Christ. It's true, because karma literally means action. That's the actual translation is karma means action. So in India, when they say your karma is your life, they mean your actions are your life, right?
Speaker 2:and Never the what, always the hell exactly never the what, always the how.
Speaker 1:So this is. I love this conversation so much and I'm this is the perfect person. You were the perfect person to have this conversation with, because I haven't met anybody in my entire life that I see so eye to eye with on human behavioral stuff ever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, same here ever, not even the like the guys that I got the information from, like Robert Sapolsky, and like these people who are Behavioralists, like behavioral biologists and whatnot. It's been so amazing to get to know you and get to see how well you understand people. I'm going to take a second to just brag on this moment for a second, because this, like I love this guy If any of, if anybody listening knows him, everybody knows Jess is this goofy, fun, loving, like, light-hearted, and he is all of those things. And what I love so much about Jess is most people, most people hide their hide, their goofiness and their silliness on the inside and keep that close to their heart and it saved that only for their family and those that are closest to them. And then they pretend to be intellectual to everybody else and Jess has gone through this shit so thoroughly that he's like that's really boring at this point and he keeps the goofy and silly out there and only the people who really know and love him get to see the like, the Incredible genius that is behind this lovely, wonderful person.
Speaker 1:So I really I'm going to move us now to. Well, what the hell do we do about it? Because the reason I brought Jess on is not just that he's a friend, but as a behavioralist, he really understands human behavior and Really, for me you guys have heard me talk a million times about human behavior is pretty much context dependent, so I'm going to let you have the floor again and talk about human behavior and how, how the revolution can actually be done by each of us and how we know we're doing it right.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, that's a big task right there.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is.
Speaker 2:Let me just sum it up. Oh, I could sum it up in like six words let's make, let's make currency our integrity, and then then, if you're rich, you've got the validation that you're doing it right. Yeah, that would be cool. That's the short answer, but that's not going to be good enough right here.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:You know, um, how do we know? Well, first of all, we can see it by the people around us. You know, the people around us getting better or getting worse. Oh, okay, because if we're living right right, if we're putting out more value than we're consuming, if we're being more loving than fearful, if we're being more proactive than reactive, then that will be self-evident in what's around us. So, the people around us getting better. Is things getting better around us, or are they getting worse? So can we be honest with ourselves when things are not going real well? Can we look inside and see where the inconsistency is, where the lack of integrity is? Because, at the end of the day, that's, that's what it comes down to is our own, our own personal integrity.
Speaker 1:So we don't need like to pay thousands of dollars for weekend workshops or like go on amazon and buy some device that tells us if we are revolutionized or not. We can just look around and look at the quality of our life and the quality of our relationships. Um, I guess I should. I should say quality of life.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say not not as an absolute, but on a relative basis over time, like, oh, you know, you could. You could be the the poorest person in the world and be in a really rough neighborhood and and all those things, and so then then it's so. I'm not talking about results based, right or outcome based. I'm talking about like, relatively. Like okay, I've been in this relationship for four or five months. Is this, is this person getting better or is this person getting worse? Okay, or or? It's obviously just a general thing. It's not a one-for-one tit for tat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's why the revolution and I agree completely and I think that's why the revolution is is it's a it's such a funny thing because it's just the word itself is so huge. Now it's like this completely abstract, ethereal thing.
Speaker 2:But all right, so so. So back then, like when that poem was written, or even when I was talking about 9, 11, you know it was a different world. You know there wasn't the internet, there wasn't All this information out there all the time. So so sometimes people ask me you know what the war is Like? If you're going to fight a revolution, how is it? And the way I see it is, the war is simply narrative these days.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, even stuff we disagree with economic stuff still, I know we both agreed on that point we made the other day whereas people could just one day just be like we're done with it, we don't accept it, like that's a dollar, whatever, it's a piece of paper, right, you know, we could just be done with it one day. And the same thing with all the wars. So that's why I believe that the war is narrative. So if your voice is pure, if your voice is true, if you have integrity within yourself, integrity with the people around you, then your narrative is going to be true and the more of those lights that join together and splatter around like that's how the revolution will play out on a larger scale. So, even though people only need to worry about themselves. They also need to see how some kind of vision.
Speaker 2:They're like OK, if I'm a better person, that's going to make the world all better, and it could be a little disheartening to be like well, I know that's not going to happen Right, which is for me, I think, if you really want to go through this process of the personal evolution, that really, if enough people do, then we reach a tipping point.
Speaker 2:This is why I love your book so much. This is why I love your book so much, because there's lots of good reasons. It's not just about Bernays and the propaganda and the corporate centers and the governments with their agendas. It's not just all about that. It's not that people are stupid and falling for all this stuff. It's that people are blind because they have their own personal traumas and they have their own things that they need to get past and in order for them to reach full integrity. And again, integrity doesn't mean some bar, that some arbitragists decide what it is.
Speaker 2:It's personal to each and every single person. If you're at peace, then you're at peace, then you're good. You don't have to worry about it. But it's not that people are always getting fooled. Sometimes people are.
Speaker 1:Oh, it turns.
Speaker 2:But people have their own personal traumas that they haven't gotten past. Sometimes they're generational traumas, sometimes they're traumas from their childhood. I certainly read your story and there's very real traumas there. I mean just think about the children of not to get too political but the children of Gaza right now. I mean it's hard to not get teared up just thinking about it. Absolutely, I don't know if I want to plug another podcast or YouTube or anything, but have you ever watched the yes Theory?
Speaker 1:Don't think so.
Speaker 2:There are these guys that travel around the world, so they're like travel ones, and their motto is seek discomfort. They have a great podcast with Winhoff that you would probably love Fun, but they go absolutely everywhere they can, and they were in Syria. I was watching an episode the other day and then walking around all these towns that have been utterly destroyed. But it's just like your story that you were saying earlier, talking to about the individuals, the people, and no one hates Americans. They're like, oh my god put us. They thought people would be very sensitive to having their picture taken and them taking video and stuff like that, but nope, quite the opposite. People are like please, please, take out picture, put it out there. We want people to see that we're good people, that this is going on, and they were so kind and so nice, and they also had one when they were in China and again, it just kills. I love it because it just kills all stereotypes. It's real people going to other countries and interacting with real people.
Speaker 1:This is why I think travel is so incredibly important, because it does expose you, and this is why not only will the revolution not be televised, but the revolution will not happen if your television's on. Yeah, I really believe that If your television is on, your revolution will never happen. I really believe that.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't say that as an absolute, because maybe I'm just, maybe I'm mentally masturbating here. But I would always say the only reason why I put the news on is because I'm curious. I think it's important for me to know what they want me to believe.
Speaker 1:Right, but you're at a different place than the people I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who are still trying to dig through their crap. You've already dug through yours, and now you have, because the reason that you can't revolutionize while the TV is on is because you need to be regulated. Right, you need a regulated nervous system. Right, you need to be focused on your shit, and most of us are good people. Call back.
Speaker 1:We're good people at our core, and when we watch people in Gaza and we watch people in Syria or China and we see all these horrible, horrible things, we go oh well, my dad picking on me wasn't anything compared to that. And then we shut it down and we go somebody else's suffering is worse than ours. Therefore, mine is invalid and we continue living in the same conditioning that we had. That leaves us broken. So, turn off your fucking television. Yeah, I really believe that you can turn it on again later, but until you get through your shit, turn it off. Right, you have to get away Because you are a good person, you listening, you are a good person, like. I genuinely believe. We are all good people at our core and because of that, your empathy will outmatch your like automatically, your cognitive like, oh no, this is important for me. I'm doing this because that's not the way that we're trained. Your empathy will stomp all over everything else, and then you will never figure out your shit, right.
Speaker 2:And I do believe that that empathy, as you heal and as you get yourself right, your empathy will naturally and organically expand outwards.
Speaker 1:It will.
Speaker 2:And this is why it's a good parameter to look at the people around you. How are they doing? Are they trending up or are they trending down? It's not about where they are right now, but are they trending up or are they trending down, and your empathy will expand. So I feel like the happiest I've been in my life are the times I'm most focused on, the biggest and just as the furthest away from me, whether it was the war in Iraq or Libya or Syria or wherever it is. But I'll tell you, there was about a year and a half, maybe two years, where my personal life went to shit, when I started getting toxic. I came in and just complained about the problems around me, I reacted to them and I started getting toxic. You know what? In that time, I didn't give a shit about Syria. I didn't give a shit about Libya.
Speaker 2:So if we're not good, our empathy can expand. Our empathy has to be with ourselves first, and in order to have that empathy we have to have integrity. I saw this really cool thing the other day that it's a really cool answer to the meaning of life. I know you didn't think we're going to cover that today, but hey, I'm here for it, baby.
Speaker 2:I'm here for it, let's go and it was about this ex-CIA guy you know the last person I'd ever looked to for any kind of advice on humaneness, and he said there was this training facility in this place. They all went there, blah, blah, blah. And there was a bar in the area and in this bar was a question. I said what is the meaning of life? And everyone, all of these CIA members and all these service people, they all put their answer on the wall and in a word bubble and then drew a line to the meaning of life and whatever. So after so many years, so many years, so many years, thousands up there, somebody went there and they said, okay, well, what's the biggest common denominator of all these ideas? What's the one thing that attaches them all? Mm-hmm, and it actually surprised me until I thought about it, but it was self-respect.
Speaker 1:Wow, I thought you're gonna say relationships, or yeah, that makes, oh, that makes perfect sense that hit me hard. Yeah, and that actually ties into something I almost jumped in with. I'm gonna take a second to shit on empathy, because I think empathy is overrated. I genuinely believe empathy is overrated.
Speaker 1:Context probably, but right, but for the most part, I think empathy is overrated because we we prioritize at least, at least, maybe it's just. Maybe it's just on the West Coast, because they don't give a shit in the Midwest. I'm from, but maybe it's just on the West Coast, but empathy seems to be like the highest mark of your humanness, like you're the best person.
Speaker 1:The best person is the most empathetic. But for me, functionally and that's a great idea, it's a great concept but functionally what that means is when, if I'm really empathetic and I see you really struggling and you're in a really, really dark place, that what the difference between empathy and sympathy is. Empathy is I feel, what you feel. So if you are in a deep, deep dark pit and then I feel what you feel, I'm in the pit with you, mm-hmm, whereas sympathy throws in a fucking ladder.
Speaker 2:I mean empathy. No, I mean sympathy. I'm gonna say frozen a ladder sympathy throws in a ladder.
Speaker 1:Sympathy says oh, that Sucks, I'm not fucking crawling in there with you because not unless I have. No, I have a way out. Be the lighthouse, not the rescue boat. Exactly. Be the lighthouse, not the rescue boat. That was.
Speaker 2:You have to protect your own energy first. Exactly otherwise you're not gonna be able to help anyone. It's almost like a virus in a way, like exactly.
Speaker 1:Empathy it does, it takes over. And in a world where everybody is so divided like the good, people are being as empathetic as we can because we're trying to bring everybody together, but then we're obliterating our own boundaries and our own self-respect because we're just worried about polling Everybody together and feeling what everybody feels, and then we become overwhelmed. We can't deal with our own nervous system. We can't deal with our nervous system regulation, which means we can't deal with our own shit, which means our children will hate us or whatever you know like yeah it just it's, it's this constant cycle.
Speaker 1:So this is why I harp on accountability so freaking much. It's why I constantly harp on accountability, because, like, we need empathy and but I think empathy Well it not? I think Charles Darwin said that empathy was the strongest character trait in all of the human species. Because of our, our socialized way of living, from the time that we was monkeys to the time that we was hairless monkeys, and it makes sense. I think empathy is the default for us, and so I think part of the personal accountability for what is revolution for us individually is learning to turn sympathy or empathy into sympathy For most of my listeners.
Speaker 1:I feel like my listeners are really good, like they're very, giving very, very tight B personality, tight people, and they're already empathetic, they already care and the the step for that for me is I Don't want to say care less, but care about less. How about that? Don't care less but care about less. You got it. You got a really like energy is finite, like love is infinite and one of the few things that multiplies when given away, but the energy that we use to display that love is finite and Because we have finite energy, we have to limit the things that we are empathetic with in order to Prioritize the things inside us that allow us to unpack this junk, become more empathetic, turn that empathy into actionable steps, which is sympathy, empathy with actionable steps, and I think that then you go. Oh, I have empathy, but I didn't obliterate my own, I didn't put myself in a hole, I couldn't get out of. That fosters self-respect, right? I?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I 100% agree with your point. I think you're allowing for the chance, maybe for distinction. I like, I like your point, I could, I could accept your words and use your words I, but I think I think of it of a different way, while still completely agreeing with all that.
Speaker 1:Let's go.
Speaker 2:I think what you're describing as the empathy that should be sympathy with a lot of people when they haven't taken care of themselves first and they're feeling too much for other people around them. I don't consider that real empathy. I consider that I mean not that this is their intent at all, but I consider that public relations empathy. I consider that people leading with their empathy because they want to be empathetic not a real natural, organic, human, default empathy that comes after you are good yourself, after you have your integrity, after you have your self-respect and after you're good, then it will naturally expand. It's not something you're leading with, that you're trying to do, that you're trying to accomplish. It just naturally comes out after you are whole and you have your integrity. So it's just slightly different vocabulary that we're using, but we're saying the same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm specifically adding something to this. There's a presupposition. Well, no, there's a presupposition that I didn't include verbally out loud. That is for me. I feel like my audience and who I'm talking to are people who have had rough starts.
Speaker 2:Oh, breaking, broken yeah.
Speaker 1:Most of us who have had rough starts. Because we cannot fight our parents and we cannot flee our parents, we learn to fawn and that means that we have to. Just, we can't fight, we can't run away, so all we have to do is make the best out of the worst situation or whatever situation that we're in, and usually that means catering to one person who is dysregulated, toxic or whatever, and what that means for a child is that child then automatically learns to be incredibly like, pathologically, and I think this is the way exactly what you're talking about. Empathy is pathological for most Americans in today's world.
Speaker 1:I believe that because, at least for my people, empathy or submissiveness I think no, it's empathy. I think empathy because that's the way that we view ourselves, because what happens is now, if I'm a five-year-old and I have an angry or abusive father, then I learn to tune in to every little facial expression, every little body movement, and I turn this hyper-awareness onto this person so I can learn to feel what they feel. That way, I can try to make whatever little adjustment I can make to prevent whatever outburst that I'm not on Right. That's exactly what happens and that is empathy and that is a conditioned empathy. That is the default in every single one of those people for the rest of their life, until they consciously change it. That is what. That's the presupposition. I was not saying out loud which totally accepts.
Speaker 1:And so yeah, we're saying the same thing, but and this is why this is exactly why we wanted to have the conversation One we always have amazing conversations, but two, I like I've never met anybody who we like. We almost always agree, but my favorite thing about our relationship is disagreeing.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's my favorite thing it makes it interesting, it makes it so interesting.
Speaker 1:And I specifically mean this with you, because when we disagree on something, we know that we see eye to eye on so much that we get curious.
Speaker 2:We get curious.
Speaker 1:Exactly Like how did you get there? What is that Like? What's the definition of this, what's the presuppositions of that? Because we, like we always wind up like pretty, pretty well, eye to eye on pretty much everything and I actually believe that all seven billion people on the planet are the same way.
Speaker 2:I think we would all agree on things if we actually got I agree, I do, I really do believe that. That's you know. That's why I call myself an optimist and why I think humans are good. I think, I really do think, we all agree.
Speaker 1:I, you know I do too. I think we all agree on the what. I think the how is where most of us disagree, and that's fine. And I think we should disagree on the how, because the how is unique to each of us, where we're at, in our environment, both culturally, psychologically, work wise, like how is always going to be different, because whatever the path of least resistance is is kind of usually the best way to go, and the path of least resistance for some, for somebody in New York or factory worker in Indiana, is going to be different. So the how is going to be different and we need to kind of make space for that, yeah.
Speaker 2:And the personal integrity for every person will be different as well. It will, but as long as they're truly okay with it.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's what really matters, because when you know that your heart was in the right place, if somebody gets offended about a thing that you say or whatever, you can go oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you that way. And when somebody says something to you that hurts your feelings or whatever, you know to not take it personally right because it probably had nothing to do with you and I that's the whole never attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It's, it's so real, yes, okay. So to look to recap what we've covered so far, we're really looking at like obvious. We covered plenty of reasons why the world needs a revolution. That's pretty self explanatory for any, for anybody alive and awake right now.
Speaker 2:We're still solving problems with, you know, killing people and imprisoning them Right and not okay.
Speaker 1:No, it's not okay, and peace will never and hatred will never be. Get peace Right. It will never be get peace, and that's that's what we're all looking for. I think that's what we all want and that's why, like step one for me, anyway, if you, if you want to really get through your crap so you can not be offended by things people say and you can be not reactive, then I mean, in order to not very be reactive, you have to learn to be proactive.
Speaker 1:And for me, my first and I don't I try not to give too much like direct advice on here but my first piece of direct advice and this comp in this conversation is turn off your TV. Turn off your TV and sit with whatever it is that's in you, right, you know, even if it's just for a few minutes a day. Set a timer. Set a timer to go what's happening in my body right now and write it down or whatever. But step one, turn off your TV, because the revolution is not going to be televised. I don't think the revolution is going to happen so long as you are glued to that TV. It might be live stream, though it could be. It could be, and in fact, well, this isn't quite live, but it'll be out in a couple of days and this is pretty close. This is all.
Speaker 1:It's been such a good conversation. I want to ask you for a couple more closing like main points for people to kind of really take away to go what people who are in the in the place of. I want my life to be a bit more peaceful and at the same time, I want to make the world around me a better place, but actionable steps, because it's all about personal evolution. That's what we've covered so much today is that we all need this revolution and it starts with our own personal evolution. So what are, what are the things that Jess thinks are the most bang for your buck for a person who probably has a little bit of trauma, a little bit of dysregulation sitting in their nervous system and is struggling to regulate themselves and still care about those around them?
Speaker 2:All right, if you asked me that five years ago, I would have been very nuts and bolts about it, and I still might do that. But I will say a very, a quick term that I've learned in the last couple of years, which I think applies to this, is shadow work. Okay, that's a recent term for me to have learned, but as soon as I learned what it was about, it was like oh yeah, that's what I've been talking about, mm.
Speaker 1:Hmm, like that stuff like like describe that to me. What shadow work to you.
Speaker 2:It's not fun, it's looking at yourself. The deepest, darkest parts and I'll tell you, the biggest one for me was the biggest ones are the hardest ones to find, because they're not going to be so obvious Like, oh, I kicked a dog yesterday and that's evil. No-transcript. You know that shadow work, but it's not deep shadow work. Uh huh, you know the real deep stuff. I mean I don't know if I want to be this vulnerable on air, but I mean I'll just say it. You know, I always, I always played the nice guy card. Like I was one of those guys like, oh, why is this girl with that guy? He's an asshole and I'm a nice guy. Why aren't I getting a girl? And I would always be polite and nice to the girls and want to be their friend. And it took me a long time to acknowledge that I was playing the nice guy card because I wanted something, mmm, I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2:You know what? It doesn't mean I'm evil, no, but it means I better be self aware, right, I better be honest with myself about what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And I'll tell you and I've always been so awkward and uncomfortable around new pretty girls that I met and as soon as I did this shadow work and really tackled it myself, no more awkwardness. It's like they can pick up on the fact that there's no ulterior agenda. Now it's like they can see so I get a more fulfilling life and a more honest life. But it was a hard thing to tackle because it's not like I was being a jerk, it wasn't like I was being abusive to women.
Speaker 2:It wasn't like anything. It was just a really hard thing for me to identify, acknowledge, admit. So all I can talk about is my personal experience and that's probably one of the toughest shadow work things I did to really examine your things. If you're not getting the things you want out of life, if you're not getting what you're going after, then you can almost be sure that you have something hidden from yourself that you're not being honest with yourself about and you have to find out what that it is. And once you find out what it is, you know what. Usually tackling it is not so hard. It's the actual identifying it. Agreed.
Speaker 2:It is where are my blind spots. What's being reflected back to me in my relationships? What's being reflected back to me in my friendships? You can try to have clues, to find the identity of whatever that is Right.
Speaker 1:It's exposure, exposure, exposure. Exposure to different people in different ways and different thoughts, and that's, at least that's for me, that's what I think of as like. The fastest way to being able to find those blind spots is seeing other people who don't have those blind spots or, if you're lucky, finding people who see your blind spots and help you, and help you in a loving way go hey, you're a little blind over here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like using humor for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, humor, that's it. It's so useful for that, it's one of the best uses of humor.
Speaker 2:Let alone you get like poking back off real quick if they're going to get really reactive and like OK, just checking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was just a joke. It's finding out that Moving on. Oh, thank you so much for having this conversation with me. Oh, thank you for existing, I know. Thank you, this is. It's been a wonderful, wonderful conversation and I definitely want to have you back and have another one because the subject matter is poignant for now. But, as Stephanie suggested when we, when we were talking about this, it really is this, this desire to understand, that I think this is what we can offer. You know, the content is fun and interesting and all of that and great, but I think the most valuable thing that you and I can offer to people listening is the actual desire to, when we disagree, to understand why, understand where, and not judge at all.
Speaker 1:And be like OK, that's OK, cool, that's what you, that's where you're at, that's what you see. Oh, I can see that and I think that that's that's really easy for us At least it's easy for me, because I just have incredible respect for you. I have incredible respect for you and the inner work that you've done. That I wasn't around for, but I can see how obviously was done. I really appreciate that. So thank you very much for coming on and thank you very much for joining us. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, leave us a comment. And it was actually suggested to me yesterday that I start having an Ask Owl little segment in my podcast where it's like when you remember the old school days when you used to write in to like columnists and stuff, and then we're like ask Amy, I'm going to tell you shit.
Speaker 1:Exactly. I couldn't remember her name. Dear Abby, that's exactly who I was thinking of. So if you have any questions like that you'd like to leave, go ahead and leave that in the comments. And again, thank you so much for joining me. There's a lot of places that you could be, and you chose to come here and listen to something that is going to improve, hopefully, your life, your quality of life, and make you feel like you've gotten a little further than you were before. Thank you again. Remember, stay curious and stay uncomfortable.